Comments on: returning home http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/ Blog, news, books Mon, 06 Feb 2017 00:05:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.8.2 By: roulette strategies http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-28296 Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:12:37 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-28296 I got this web site from my pal who informed me regarding this website and now this time I am browsing
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By: Zongo http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21196 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:42:38 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21196 “my life is much better with TurboTax (and its competitors) in existence. It’s saved me many headaches”
“there’s no way in hell that I’d do my taxes using a program written by God knows who, in his spare time”

These statements seems to imply that what you get from your tax program is not the code in itself, but the headache-reducing service associated with it.

So what would happen if the code was free ?

would you :
1- grab a copy of the code and run the program by yourself ?
2- pay the company and run the program as one of their clients (with added benefits including, in case there is a software-related problem with your tax return, that it would be their responsability and not yours) ?

IMHO, the company would not loose many clients, if at all

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By: Mr. Magoo http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21195 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:38:19 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21195 Addendum to the above:
Speaking for myself, my life is much better with TurboTax (and its competitors) in existence. It’s saved me many headaches. These tax preparation programs wouldn’t exist in your world. Or they’d exist only as in-house programs used in accountant’s offices, unavailable to the general public. I fail to see the benefit to society.

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By: Mr Magoo http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21194 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:34:29 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21194 kien wrote:
“Nobody’s saying that. “Free” is a confusing word in the English languange…perhaps you mistook it to mean “gratis” (free of money) instead of “libre” (free of control).

If it was the former, nothing could be further from the truth; there are lots of people making money on “free” stuff and as the economy matures to accept this “hedonism”, more people will find ways to make more money off it.

If it was the latter, I can only welcome you into the 21st century where your customers are finally flexing their muscles and the end result is in your best interest.”

kien, how have “customers flexed their muscle” in demanding that companies relinquish control of the source code?

Lessig gives his books away for free (or, charges for the book but doesn’t care if anyone copies it and gives away the copies). The difference between software and a book is that with a book the “code” (i.e. the written words) and the product used by the user (i.e. the written words) are one and the same. With software, the source code and the binary are NOT one and the same. Indeed, the user doesn’t give a damn about the source code at all. So, giving the source code to the user does not increase the user’s “control” of the product. So, there’s no advantage to the user for the developer to give the source code. If governments want to demand the source code in order to sell to the government, that’s fine, but I foresee mountains and mountains of source code locked away in a vault, unexamined by anyone and serving no purpose (like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark). What in God’s name is some government going to do with 10 million lines of source code for a particular product? Look for backdoors that were put in for espionage purposes? There’s no way that a group of people unfamiliar with the code would be able to do a proper examination of 10 million lines, so it’s a waste of time. About the only thing one could do with it is recompile it and give away the copies, and we’re right back to the “free as in beer” stuff that you try to deny.

I heard Lessig give a talk regarding copyright for the “arts” (which I agreed with about 40%). He gave an examples where some video political spoof borrowed music and clips from earlier sources, and argued that, for the good of society, the holders of the copyrights of the earlier works should not be able to prevent the use of their work in derived works. This doesn’t apply to software in the same way. Lessig is way out of his element when it comes to software. If somebody wants to use an idea of an earlier software program in his own, then that’s one thing. But to demand the actual source code is something else.

Indeed, nobody here has given a decent explanation of why source code should be given away for free. Mr. Brown asked how Intuit could stay in business if they gave away Turbo Tax for free. You responded by saying that you’re not asking Intuit to give away Turbo Tax for free, you’re merely asking that they relinquish control of the Turbo Tax source code to the customers (like the customers give a damm) (and, I suppose, follow Lessig’s example and allow others to compile that source code and give away the resulting copies). Intuit would not benefit from such a practice, and the customers wouldn’t benefit either because TurboTax would never have been invented under such circumstances. And don’t try to tell me that an OSS group would’ve created TurboTax, because guess what, THEY DIDN’T. And sorry, but there’s no way in hell that I’d do my taxes using a program written by God knows who, in his spare time. My taxes are too important to risk preparing them with some shoddy OSS program.

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By: Mr. Magoo http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21193 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:10:35 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21193

“If you dont understand what free culture or free content have to do with free software, I suggest you begin, assuming you WANT to understand, by reading Koleen Kotally’s “punitive” sentence against Microsoft for its predatory abuses during the browser war, allowing the desktop monopoly to charge whomever for the use of file formats set by some or its softwares’ APIs. It helps if you start by reading some MS EULAs (only possible during instalation, of course). Lesson two can be to follow the unfolding billionaire self-exploding suicidal legal attack by SCO against former allies, hopefully also its money trail. Groklaw may help on this.”

p rezende, you’d be more convincing if you and the others didn’t attack Microsoft so much. Microsoft makes only 10% of commercial software in the world. Destroy them (as appears to be your real agenda), and you still have 90% of other commercial software houses that are not interested in giving their code away for free. How old are you, twelve?

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By: Mr Magoo http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21192 Fri, 11 Feb 2005 05:34:23 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21192 I hate to tell you this, but Brazil isn’t going to lead the world in anything except on how to play a beautiful game of futbol. Brazil is a backwater, relatively speaking, when it comes to the high tech world.

Creative Commons would be wise to stick to worrying about copyright for music, movies, books, plays, and other “art”. Software isn’t an “art” per se, and Lessig’s arguments for why copyright is “bad” for the “arts” don’t apply to software.

If people want to write software for free, they will. Those that don’t want to shouldn’t be forced to and shouldn’t be forced to give their stuff to other developers for free. There’s already plenty of REAL free public domain software and Free BSD software (which might as well be public domain, if it is technically not). That software has its place, as does software whose code is completely private and software whose code is available under licenses more restrict than public domain or free BSD (like the licenses that commercial companies use when releasing code, or the GPL (which claims to be a “freedom” license but is anything but).

I’m glad I got out of the software biz, because you guys are devaluing the profession. Programmers used to be looked up to as “rocket-science”-type smart guys, but now they’re regarded in the same mode as mechanics or plumbers, both of which take some brains but are professions that anyone can do with the proper training. And by insisting that software be free, you devalue the programming profession in accordance with the perceived value of the programmer’s product. When people perceive the value of software to be zero (in monetary terms), they won’t perceive programmers to be much more valuable than zero.

As for the 90% of software is in-house custom stuff that’s never sold so that it doesn’t matter if its value is “free” or not, well as one who wrote both in-house software and commercial software for the masses (available in shrink wrap in stores), I can tell you that writing in-house stuff is a tedius excersise in boredom compared to writing software for the masses. So saying that everyone who wants to earn a living by writing software must do so by writing in-house stuff is a sad development. Besides that, it cuts against your own argument. Why is it so important for software to be “free”, when your movement doesn’t even affect the 90% of software that’s in-house? Let the 90% be “free” and let the other 10% be for sale. What’s wrong with that?

Anyway, you do what you like. I became a programmer in the 80′s, got rich, and retired, so I really don’t care. But you’re cutting your nose off to spite your face. Of course Lessig doesn’t care, he’s not a programmer. He’s a misguided idealist. But he (and guys like RMS) are getting you guys to do harm to your own profession. It’s almost comical.

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By: prezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21191 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 23:03:34 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21191

I wish you luck with that strategy and I truly hope that I am wrong in predicting it to be seriously flawed.

If each of us reach out to implement one’s strategy of choice at the same time, we increase each one’s chance of success. That’s the WSF spirit! :-)

cheers

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By: johnsoon http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21190 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 17:02:23 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21190 i m scared…

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By: Relentless http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21189 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 15:35:44 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21189 p rezende,

I wish you luck with that strategy and I truly hope that I am wrong in predicting it to be seriously flawed.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21188 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 12:44:05 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21188

So, you really think that widespread change to copyright laws on intellectual property will be acheived regardless of whether the US Congress is moved into at least tacit agreement with these views?

It already happend regarding AIDS-related patents. In general, I don’t think it will happen if people just sit down whining about what’s going on, taken aback by the black-and-white view of the world that the powerful want to sell us, as passive cattle in the self-fulfilling prophecy game they play.

I think it can only happen if people unconfortable with the state of the world brush up their innermost values, take charge of their own conscience and join in to do something about it, building their own view of the world in the process. This is what happened in the case of cryptographic software (Brazil abstaining): stringent laws ended up being loosen, not only the ITARR in the US, because the ones in place from the cold war were being demoralized by a reality buit through grassroot actions. The battle for software patent law in the EU, at the moment we read, an interesting and unfolding example.

New ways of joining in and doing something are sprouting about every day, the digital revolution’s unchartered waters reserves us many surpirises. There are just too many fronts, CC is only a piece in this chess game, and you just listed a few other important ones. Look, for instance, how the global lobbying power of the Telcos will transform, under the widespread use of free (as in speech) VoIP software and ( given DSL, as in beer) services. However, it can only happen if enough people try to make it happen, for the strategy of the powerful to sustain the status quo is devide-and-conquer. This is a time to be open minded, reviving McCarthyism is falling pray to their strategy. Fortunately, there were more that 1 thousand US citizens at the 2005 WSF, the other 154K honored by Lessig being one of them.

The arguments for the radicalization of IP are basically the same used by the segregationists leading to the US civil war of the 1860s. Brazil was the last country to free itself from pre-industrialized physical slavery, in 1888, it may pay its moral debt to history leading the fight to free the world of pos-industiralized digital slavery, affirming human rights to express and access knowledge in an information society. There will be a price for that leadership, but there will also be a price for inaction. And the choice here should be, I believe, ultimately guided by moral logic.

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By: Relentless http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21187 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:00:41 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21187 So, you really think that widespread change to copyright laws on intellectual property will be acheived regardless of whether the US Congress is moved into at least tacit agreement with these views? At least now I can clearly see where our difference of opinion comes from.

I dont foresee any possibility of meaningful copyright evolution taking place with regard to intellectual property on a world wide stage without backing from the United States. The Kyoto accords on pollution seem to be a similar example of world wide programs that lose an awful lot of their inertia without US support.

This isnt an argument born from ethnocentric blind patriotism or flag waving idiocy… its an opinion based on the fact that US provides most of the world’s pollution and most of the world’s technological patents and copyrights at this point.

In a world where copyright protections are evolved to a more sane status but where the US is either left out of that process or resistant to that process you will be setting up the stage for tarrif and trade wars that will act like some from of world wide value added tax on countries that dont police the illegal infringement of property” of US corporations.

Believe me, as a US citizen I would like nothing more than to be governed by a political group that took the views of other countries seriously and seeked to work within the framework of a world community. To the dismay of many, including myself, the US government as currently constituted could not care less what most of the world thinks…. see Iraq as a shining example of that foolishness.

Nonetheless, when you are in a position of extremely unequal bargaining power that doesnt mean you can accomplish more by choosing not to bargain with those in power.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21186 Tue, 08 Feb 2005 00:43:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21186

Of course there won’t be a “Copyright Shortening Act of 2005″ because some countries provide shorter terms or copyrights of smaller scope than the US, but international politics can have an effect on copyright, trademark and patent law.

There will certainly be no time for a “copyright shortening act” in 2005, but we can have some loosening up in a longer span, if a process similar to that which affected ITARR unfolds over IP. Which is not unlikely, given the traction FOSS, CC and the like are gaining (the level of noise + FUD around’em being a sign).

Paranoid rules on cryptographic software from ITARR, whose logic did not factor in the non-universality of its jurisdiction, ended up driving business away from state-of-the art US companies, into jurisdictions more favorable to consumers, inducing these companies to pressure the US congress into untightening ITARR. Even under the war “on terror”.

But politicians tend to have short, selective memories, and we now see CDBPTA and INDUCE on the same route. The ebb and flow of life, like it or not the non-esoteric.

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By: Max Lybbert http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21185 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:57:58 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21185 Now that I’m back in cyberspace, I must appologise for getting Brazillian politics wrong. Then again, I wasn’t in Brazil for political reasons, and I didn’t follow the election too closely while I was there, as foreigners don’t vote in any country other than Iraq (where foreigners complained there weren’t enough foreign polling stations). It’s also been a few years, and I wasn’t taking notes.

And all this time a nice debate was raging over mischaracterizations of the most extreme Free Software viewpoints, and a representative who appears to hold a view of IP similar to mine.

And Brazil is a perfect backdrop for the debate, since the country was one of the first to ignore US patents on AIDS drug medications as a way to fight AIDS. Not only is that proof that Brazil isn’t a US colony, it has paved an easier road for other companies to do similar things.

And if you recall, the reason given for the Copyright Extension Act of 1998 was that European countries provided longer copyright terms than the US, and international politics required the US to extend its own copyright terms.

Of course there won’t be a “Copyright Shortening Act of 2005″ because some countries provide shorter terms or copyrights of smaller scope than the US, but international politics can have an effect on copyright, trademark and patent law.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21184 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 19:39:17 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21184

At this point im guessing there is some kind of language barrier at work… that or you are simply not reading what I am writing:

OK, For the benefit of all, lets then work out the language barrier THROUGH a more careful reading of what’s been written.

I have no interest in censoring what is done in Brazil. My point is that what is done in a tent in Brazil will in no way be convincing to those undecided or powerful to those in opposition as a method of creating change.Those in Brazil can do what they like, Lessig and others can go to 1 rally after another… if you think that will make the US Congress enact laws more favorable to CC or courts strike down laws that need to be taken down, or Gates’ supporters rethink their business models… then you are sorely mistaken….

Well, when you twice said “stop chanting poems under a [whatever] tent”, it could have been inferred that the reason for the advice was a common goal, to best influence those in positions to enact laws more favorable to CC, but it was not clear that the only place where those laws can be so enacted was the US Congress.

The tent was set up in Brazil, but the forum was international. The 2005 World Social Forum had 155 K people from 136 countries attending, willing to raise voices in counterpoint to those emanting simultaneously from the World Economic Forum, in Davos, another international Forum.

It was, therefore, natural to those who know about these facts, I and maybe also Lessig, to assume that places where favorable laws can be enacted include the European Parlament, WIPO, WTO and national assemblies, besides the US Congress. In fact, I think it is safe to assume that those in the WSF track A rallies believe the US Congress would be the least likely such place to be so influenciable at this point, regardless of strategy.

Since it is also safe to assume that those same people also believe that not all other assemblies are yet rubber-stampers of the US Congress, time urges for them to be influenced by what happens in those tents, before the rubber-stamping “upgrade” happens, if it happens. I even guess that some of them also believe that such actions can contribute for these other assemblies NOT to be, or tard in being, “upgraded” to rubber-stampers. And some, that the main drive for them to be there being just that. And they are not loonies, just wake up and take a look at how the battle for software pattent law in the EU is unfolding!

So, it is only now, when you finally spell out what you believe to be the common goal of those rallying there and in this list, that we are able to spot this missunterstanding: We (Lessig, I and others) were there and are everywhere trying to influence assemblies that are more likely to be influenciable, in the hope or with the goal of
a) self-interest;
b) sending a message to US congress, for laws like DMCA can not be trully effective without universal jurisdiction;
c) before its too late.
We’re not only chanting poems in tents, which is a good hook for a hostile local media (which I suppose you dont know), we’re dead serious about it. For it means a lot more to us, non-US citizens, that you may suppose. If not convinced, please read the article by reuters, with tangible business data, linked above.

I believe that our misunderstanting, leading me to read your “stop chanting poems in [whatever] tents” as an attempt of censorship, to previously undetected differences of oppinioin on how the world operates, including the motivation of those 155K people from 136 countries under tents in Brazil. A difference I would call a cultura gap, rather that a language barrier, posed by different centers of gravity. So no, I don’t believe we (Lessig, I and others) are mistaken about the US Congress, I think, rather, that some here are demeaning the rest of the world. Now, to the next misunderstanding.

I am not blaming anyone for anything annonimously. I am blaming Lessig (the person who wrote the Blog entry) for speaking of CC and the open source movement in terms that its detractors will draw fuel from rather than in terms that they might take heed from. He is fanning the fire of the left when in fact what he needs to be doing is convincing those in opposition to CC that he is correct (regardless of their politics and based on more tangible business data).

After quoting an entire paragraph that I wrote regarding the greed label, someone posted under pseudonim “Relentless”: “That is by far the stupidest thing I have read in a long long time… perhaps ever. We need to call people names like “greedy” so they can understand why being not-greedy would be better?…You dont start reasonable discussions by insulting the people you are trying to discuss something with. …… you dont stand there with your arms folded and call them names like some arrogant jackass.”. When I read that, my limited skills in the english language led me to believe that someone identified by a pseudonym was blaming me for starting flames here, not Lessig. I can only appologize for my impairment.

But when you, whomever, earlier summoned Lessig to “Stop couching the debate in terms that conjure up pictures of Lesig and Castro sharing a cigar at some festival under a tent in a banana republic somewhere” my english skills were enough to register the insult.

The term “banana republic” was coined from the process of violent overthrow of the elected governent of Guatemala by CIA operatives in 1954, installing one of the most ruthless and bloody dictatorship our continent ever witnessed. The phrase became an emblem, not only in Latin America, for ruthless lawless imperial dominance, a modern label for slavery. Something not too good to be thrown around lightly as a joke, nowadays

Now, forget Lessig: that’s fanning the fire to the left!! (outside the US, where it is the most inflamable!). A confessed christian should be careful, for instance, with the word “cruzade” while in heated discussioins with moslems. Dare you not now pretend you didnt know you were playing with fire, for you ended your sentence with a “never mind” sign which only added insult to injury “(yes im fully aware how inaccurate that depiction is)”. Why use it then? You’ve already elected a president who shows poor knowledge and respect for other cultures, why aggravate the situatilon in cyberspace? .

Finally, I think we can atribute this last misunderstanding to the same cultural gap. And move on, more gardful of our tempers and tongue.

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By: Relentless http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21183 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:11:36 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21183

I think it requires being said he is way out of target by annonimousy blaming others for what he has started here. I am not yet convinced of his right to censor here what is done in Brazil, specially through arrogant self centered elitist and racist name calling.

At this point im guessing there is some kind of language barrier at work… that or you are simply not reading what I am writing:

1) I am not blaming anyone for anything annonimously. I am blaming Lessig (the person who wrote the Blog entry) for speaking of CC and the open source movement in terms that its detractors will draw fuel from rather than in terms that they might take heed from. He is fanning the fire of the left when in fact what he needs to be doing is convincing those in opposition to CC that he is correct (regardless of their politics and based on more tangible business data).

2) I have no interest in censoring what is done in Brazil. My point is that what is done in a tent in Brazil will in no way be convincing to those undecided or powerful to those in opposition as a method of creating change. Those in Brazil can do what they like, Lessig and others can go to 1 rally after another… if you think that will make the US Congress enact laws more favorable to CC or courts strike down laws that need to be taken down, or Gates’ supporters rethink their business models… then you are sorely mistaken.

I am not here to talk about esoteric ideas that would be nice one day… im here to discuss factual plans and to collaborate on ways in which they can be brought to reality.

Calling people names, holding rallies in Brazillian tents and acting like thats all very important may feel good… but it isnt going to make ANY significant changes happen.

Thats not an arrogant or racist statement, its a plain simple fact.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21182 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 15:48:45 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21182

I don’t think it requires being said, but Relentless is very on target with everything he said.

Agree, except for the “everythnig he said”. I think it requires being said he is way out of target by annonimousy blaming others for what he has started here. I am not yet convinced of his right to censor here what is done in Brazil, specially through arrogant self centered elitist and racist name calling.

By saing that you are not only condoning these ugly prejudices, you are also here inciting it, which Mama Time has been trying to convince us is not a good idea.

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By: blaze http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21181 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:54:15 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21181 I don’t think it requires being said, but Relentless is very on target with everything he said.

Though, I disagree that Gates needs to be proven anything. Time and the evolution of ideas will make him (or not) a dinasour. What he believes (or doesn’t) isn’t really that important.

Similarly for all of us. This debate isn’t because we’re trying to convince anyone of anything, but rather engage in a dialog so we can all learn from it.

Mama Time is the only one that really matters, and she doesn’t need to be convinced of anything.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21180 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:18:38 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21180

Heck, why not open debates on racial equality by calling people nigger or cracker?…You dont start reasonable discussions by insulting the people you are trying to discuss something with. You start reasonable discussions by opeing them in a manner that THEY will find paletable.

Please, lets get the story straight here.

a) We don’t agree this debate is reasonable: all the misrepresentations of what was previously said, even before I started posting here, is a sign that it is not. People proud of their greed — t’is capitalism! — taking offense when reminded is another sign.
b) I did NOT start either the discussion, the arrogance or the name calling. I took the opportunity presented by the complainer’s arrogant name calling to flash a mirror here. Calling someone a nigger is indeed not a good way to open a debate on racial equality, but being called a banana citizen is a good chance to engage in one.
c) As FN previously observed, a whole lot of guys will get uptight. So what? So be it. Strategies have to be tested to be proved worthy. As to our tests, go to the link at my previous post.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21179 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:04:24 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21179

Stop calling people names, stop chanting poems in a brazillian tent… and start proving that they have the lesser view or convincing them to change their view.

Please, read what reuters, for example, has to say here

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By: Relentless http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21178 Mon, 07 Feb 2005 11:48:13 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21178

The greed label is not intended as an offense, but as a necessary step to dialog. The aim is to gather that by holding greed as an absolute value, one loses the capacity to connect dots to come to the understanding of how a less greedy strategy can, scale permitting, be technically, legally and economically more efficient. And how the moving threshold for such efficiency can globally impact bottom lines. In perhaps less offensive words, if less greedy strategies can be more efficient, this can only be comprehended by first waving absolute predication in greed’s axiology, be it moral, economic or both. Taking offense on its mention, specially extreme, is a pointer to an unwillingness for this first step, for this “change or referential”. And thus, for the opportunity to understand what is going on, what that camp is about, is doing and is up to.

That is by far the stupidest thing I have read in a long long time… perhaps ever. We need to call people names like “greedy” so they can understand why being not-greedy would be better?

Perhaps I should start calling people Commie as a method of reaching meaningful dialogue. Heck, why not open debates on racial equality by calling people nigger or cracker?

You dont start reasonable discussions by insulting the people you are trying to discuss something with. You start reasonable discussions by opeing them in a manner that THEY will find paletable.

If you believe CC and reforms to copyright will lead to a more efficient marketplace, to a “larger pie” that will yield greater prosperity even if the size of each slice shrinks a bit…. and you know that those are the issues your opponents are most interest in… then you talk about how and why that will happen… you dont stand there with your arms folded and call them names like some arrogant jackass.

Gates and Scalia and the powers that be WILL prevail in all matters UNTIL they are convinces otherwise or proven to have the lesser view. The status quo is on their side and that means the burder of proof is on our shoulders not theirs.

Stop calling people names, stop chanting poems in a brazillian tent… and start proving that they have the lesser view or convincing them to change their view.

Do you want to talk about CC, or do you want to make it the dominant scheme for copyright? Name calling is the way to keep talking, proof of theory is the way to make it happen.

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By: FN http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21177 Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:27:49 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21177 Obviously a whole lot of guys are getting uptight about the alternative perspectives and approaches coming through here! We in India appreciate the worth of these ideas. It will help the majority of this planet, not a tiny minority.

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By: p rezende http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21176 Sun, 06 Feb 2005 14:02:07 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21176

P Rezende, I really think there’s much more to it.

Yes, but how much can you say in a blog? In a EU-Latin American inter-ministerial forum, what I could pack in a 15 minutes talk is here.

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By: Delance http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21175 Sun, 06 Feb 2005 04:51:35 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21175 Tassyr, what offends youy is just what Gates said or me too?

Kien, it’s CAPTAIN Johnny Depp.

P Rezende, I really think there’s much more to it.

A lot of folks still think Free Culture and Free Software in the sense of Free Beer, but not Free Speech. It�s possible that support might fade when they figure out that both things are actually very beneficial to the Free Market, the least popular of the “Free” Family. He’s like that odd cousin no one wants to talk about.

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By: Kien http://www.lessig.org/2005/01/returning-home/#comment-21174 Sun, 06 Feb 2005 02:28:26 +0000 http://lessig.org/blog/2005/01/returning_home.html#comment-21174 Mr. Brown, I take issue with your premise.


Um, now, why is it wrong of me to charge for my software and take steps against its piracy?

Nobody’s saying that. “Free” is a confusing word in the English languange…perhaps you mistook it to mean “gratis” (free of money) instead of “libre” (free of control).

If it was the former, nothing could be further from the truth; there are lots of people making money on “free” stuff and as the economy matures to accept this “hedonism”, more people will find ways to make more money off it.

If it was the latter, I can only welcome you into the 21st century where your customers are finally flexing their muscles and the end result is in your best interest.

As for piracy….I think Johnny Depp did a great job even though he was a prick when my sister was an extra on 21 Jumpstreet. :)

–K.

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